On Mon, 13 May 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
At 6:26 PM 5/13/96, Mark O. Aldrich wrote:
On Mon, 13 May 1996, Senator Exon wrote: <snip>
i can fill out and manipulate the card myself i just need a working method. <snip>
of like a key certificate. If you really can dork the card, have ten different people volunteer one print each. There's no way that they'll ever be able to use that as evidence in a court or for any other purpose, either.
A stupid idea. As the employer, I wouldn't have to prove it a court of law...suspicion alone that some of my employees were fucking up a security system might be enough for me to either a. promote them to the Tiger Team, or b. fire their asses.
I think the assertion that Tim is making in regard to an "employer" in the traditional work-at-will sense is correct, but it's not the one I was addressing. If an employer seeks prints and you don't want to give them, then don't work there. If, however, the point of gathering the prints is to record them in the FBI's database, and Senator Exon is worried about later committing a crime and having print records used to identify him, then using the prints of ten different people will muck up such a process. Senator Exon did not fully explain the situation as to whether or not the certification sought will result in fingerprints simply being _checked_, or if they will be _recorded_ for later use, nor did he specify to which outcome he objects, if not both.
(I just can't understand where this pervasive meme is coming from here on this list, the notion that employers are severely limited in what they can do to employees unless they can "prove it in court. Like it or not, most employees in the United States are still employed "at will," and are not covered by employment contracts such as some executives and the like get.)
I think it comes from some of the statutes being placed on employers. The citizens have repeatedly used the legal machine to force employers to have to compete is less than a pure, capitalistic environment. Monitoring employees is one area that's caused some states to pass laws regulating this notion - they have rejected the "if you don't like it, don't take the job" premise you've stated here. Likewise, the minimum wage is a similar legislative action we've taken to stop employers from using a "if you won't work under these conditions, you don't have a job" requisite. The "pure" capitalistic approach would be "if you won't work for $1.00 per hour, take a hike up the street." We've said that this is illegal (at least in most cases), and we force employers to pay every employee at least some arbitrary sum greater than than amount. Thus, the meme may be the simple extrapolation of these ideals into areas over which they do not yet have legal impact.
If you're forced to do this in person with a tech, you can continuously "fight" the grip they have on your hand and smudge the card. However,
Sure. It makes it easy for the employer to simply say "Next candidate."
Unless they want you badly enough. I've been able to avoid a number of situations because it was not cost effective for them to secure the services of someone less qualified. Policy is great until it gets in the way of people making money - almost anything can be "waived" if they want you to help them make money, and their greed outweighs their sense of duty to comply with a given so-called "security" policy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Liberty is truly dead |Mark Aldrich | | when the slaves are willing |GRCI INFOSEC Engineering | | to forge their own chains. |maldrich@grci.com | | STOP THE CDA NOW! |MAldrich@dockmaster.ncsc.mil | |_______________________________________________________________________| |The author is PGP Empowered. Public key at: finger maldrich@grci.com | | The opinions expressed herein are strictly those of the author | | and my employer gets no credit for them whatsoever. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------