At 08:20 PM 12/12/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote: Nomen Nescio wrote recently -
Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled threat. Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason. Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd. No Attorney General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.
.. but s/he is apparently unfamiliar with the events described in _United States v. Schenck_ 249 US 47 (1919); _United States v. Debs_ 249 US 211 (1919); _Abrams v. US_ 250 US 616 (1919); and _United States v. Pierce_ 252 US 239 (1920); all of which are US Supreme Court cases upholding convictions of people for the crime of criticizing existing government policy and/or urging noncooperation with war-related activity. There were approximately 2000 prosecutions and 1000 convictions for violations of the speech-related Espionage and Sedition acts during World War I. Nomen quoted Ashcroft as saying "We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering" - but Nomen and Ashcroft's call for debate which occurs after decisions are made and people are jailed, not before, puts them firmly in Beyond the Looking Glass territory, to wit -
`It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked.
`What sort of things do YOU remember best?' Alice ventured to ask.
`Oh, things that happened the week after next,' the Queen replied in a careless tone. `For instance, now,' she went on, sticking a large piece of plaster [band-aid] on her finger as she spoke, `there's the King's Messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all.'
`Suppose he never commits the crime?' said Alice.
`That would be all the better, wouldn't it?' the Queen said, as she bound the plaster round her finger with a bit of ribbon. Alice felt there was no denying THAT.
`Of course it would be all the better,' she said: `but it wouldn't be all the better his being punished.'
`You're wrong THERE, at any rate,' said the Queen: `were YOU ever punished?'
`Only for faults,' said Alice.
`And you were all the better for it, I know!' the Queen said triumphantly.
`Yes, but then I HAD done the things I was punished for,' said Alice: `that makes all the difference.'
`But if you HADN'T done them,' the Queen said, `that would have been better still; better, and better, and better!' Her voice went higher with each `better,' till it got quite to a squeak at last.
sound familiar? -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles@parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 Eliminate due process, civil rights? It's the Constitution, stupid!