At 7:47 AM -0800 5/20/97, Peter Trei wrote:
What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT 'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take strong exception to your implication that I would support such a thing.
All Bell ever proposed was a kind of POLL. A series of bets. There is very little distinction. In fact, were a POLL to be used as the scoreboarding mechanism, any number of clever derivatives of the same poll could be used to implement AP. (To flesh this out, imagine Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas posting the poll the way they post racing results...others could then take bets on who would appear on the poll. If "Janet Vegas" led the poll of "Living Persons Desired to be Dead," and I knew approximately when Janet Vegas were to die--similarities with AP intentional--then I could make a fair amount by betting that Janet Vegas would soon disappear from that list of "Living Persons Desired to be Dead" poll. My point was not that you were supporting the kiling of anyone, Peter, but that your playing around with a variant--and I maintain that this is what your POLL is--of Bell's variant is essentially just what Bell was doing. (I happen to think it's a lot cleaner and more efficient to have primary market, using untraceable contact and payment systems to contract for murders, and that Bell's AP was clumsy and inefficient and would probably have outcomes far from what he speculated might be the outcome.)
I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large organization you dislike, you're right.)
As I said, I wasn't claiming you supported AP or killings in general. I was noting that your playing with related ideas, which surely you must admit bear several similarities to AP, is just what Bell was doing.
Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote:
The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state.
Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North Korea, and many others ahead of the US.
As you say, a matter of opinon. Next point.
From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected governments...
I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour, it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with numbers.
It seems you agree with me on this. Next point.
...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident groups
Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights? What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals again, so you'd better have multiple instances.
Cuban Airlines, for example, by CIA-funded Cuban guerillas. Cf. the URL http://www.cubaweb.cu/noticias/violence.html, one of many describing the details. "The U.S. government has taken almost no action against Cuban emigree terrorists who operate freely from U.S. territory, despite the fact that that country pretends to condemn terrorism around the world. Further, when Cuban defectors have hijacked planes and boats and/or killed people in the process, U.S. has refused to return them to Cuba for prosecution and, in fact, have released them with at most a gentle verbal slap. "The most awful terrorist action occurred on October 6, 1976, when a bomb planted aboard a "Cubana Airlines" plane exploted after the passenger jet took off from Barbados, killing all 73 people aboard -57 Cubans (including the entire fencing team), 11 Guyanese and 5 North Koreans." The CIA also engineered the bomb timers Terpil and Wilson, either CIA agents or CIA renegades, or both (you decide), used in several airliner destructions. (Why was the CIA building altitude-sensing bomb fuzes which could be disguised in radios? Only one guess allowed.) (It's also been reported that Abu Abbas has worked for the Agency, and that much of the Bekaa Valley/Syrian/Lebanese drug trade is connected with these areas. No time to write about it here, but do searches on BCCI, Abbas, Castle Bank, Terpil, Wilson, Bekaa, etc.)
...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno.
Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state?
It would take too long to find all the URLs and supporting evidence for a precise count, but here are some of the _countries_ and leaders in which the U.S. has been fairly convincingly linked to the killings: * Iran/Mossadegh * Algeria/Ben Bella * Congo/Lamumba (and the guy who came before or after) * Viet Nam, Diem, and other regional leaders * Cuba, several attempts on Castro, well-documented (they got Che Guevara) * Chile, Allende * several other smaller African nations, whose leaders were assassinated in what are believed to be CIA and DIA actions (or where CIA, etc. provided support) As to Carter's order, so? Do we know, or even have reason to believe, that Reagan, Bush, and even Clinton have not had government officials of even heads of state in other countries whacked? (Noriega claims, fairly convincingly, that he holed up in the Catholic hospital (or church, whatever) because he understood the desire of the U.S. was to kill him and not have to have a very public trial in the U.S. This is not a proved claim, but the "smoking gun" on these sorts of things is rarely found. Many analysts have stated that avoiding taking Noriega alive was a goal of "Operation Just Cause.")
Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."?
Well, it seems we agreed the first "claim" was a matter of opinion, the second one was as I stated it, the third one was evidenced by the Cuban airliner blown up by CIA-funded terrorists (excuse me, "freedom fighters"), and possibly other examples in the Mideast. Which leaves the last point, about assassinations of foreign leaders. Counting all the killings of leaders, I believe the body count for U.S.-sponsored or -encouraged killings will exceed a dozen. Maybe a couple of dozen over the past several decades. In any case, if you want me to taken the "s" out of "dozens," as I cannot document 24 such kilings, I will be happy to. (Here's one analysis, of many, of the Lamumba situation: "CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Le Mumba, the first democratically elected leader in all of Africa, was aligned with the Soviet Union, and in the post-independent chaos was murdered, if not with CIA help, many believed with CIA blessing. Urquhart argues that the politics of the Cold War severely retarded Zaire's political development. "SIR BRIAN URQUHART: These were proxy Cold War battles, and, of course, the Congo, now Zaire, originally got into trouble on an East-West split because the West of the United States backed President Kazabubu and the East and Soviet Union backed the prime minister, who was Patrice LaMumba." Add to this list the others I mentioned. I'd say it's fine tribute to a democartic people's republic like the USA.
There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that your exaggerations are counter-productive.
I stand by what I wrote. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."