PM and TCM frequently debate about what is relevant on this list. I have sometimes commented on this. in fact PM's conservative stance to relevance, and TCM's more liberal one, and the tension between the two goes back to list origins. this is a highly inflammable topic, and I am surely going to get my eyebrows toasted for saying *anything*, however I would like to say a few things: if there were two key elements here, these conversations would probably largely go away (instead of continually reappear) - an unambiguous charter - an active moderator unfortunately I suspect that a moderator does exist but he "prefers to remain anonymous" ("pseudonymous"?). imho that is precisely how *not* to succeed as a moderator. PM and TCM are indeed filling a genuine vacuum. when the moderator is AWOL, pseudomoderators fight each other. (oops, the whole idea of a moderator is just not anarchic enough. well, then I suggest everyone just enjoy these repeated, endless displays of public bile and hostility as the basic modus operandii of people who embrace the glory of anarchy. anarchy in action!! but it is more fun to deny them as total delusions and effects entirely attributable to one's enemies..) -- also, another frequent split on this list is of politics vs. coding. frankly I think just having two lists, one dedicated to "cypherpunk politics", the other dedicated to "cypherpunk technicality", would solve most problems. and finally again I suggest as I have in the past that no one other than the moderator really has any authority to say what is or is not relevant. and if you see someone say what is, take it with a grain of salt, or ignore it if you like. a major problem is people defending themselves when they are attacked by someone who says "that's not relevant!!". the problem is the perception of the loss of face. otherwise, what's the point? this is an interesting psychological effect that I have observed even when people use pseudonyms. it seems it is deeply ingrained into human behavior. this list is in fact imho a hotbed of psychological displays. the machismo factor is pretty thick and deep at times too. to all this I suggest one consider the idea that "criticism by a bonehead is as flattering as praise from a genius". (hee, hee) for those who absolutely cannot refrain from trying to yell at other people about relevant postings (judging by the mail, a rather significant percentage) I suggest you quote the *charter* whenever you do so, to demostrate whatever authority it is you think you have. -- anyone who needs moderator lessons should take them from S.Sandfort, an ex teacher who runs cypherpunk meetings involving a lot of childhood psychologies as effectively as humanly possible, IMHO. -- p.s. it appears to me the entrance requirements for cypherpunk membership are to have a 150 IQ and a 75 *EQ*. and that all the arguing and hostility comes from the more uninhibited pathological cases of these people. -- one could in fact have great fun impersonating someone with a grotesquely low EQ on this list and create a tremendous reaction among all the people with equally low EQs, responding to the bait with the same intelligence a fish attacks a wiggling worm. it would be "evolution in action", imho. (hee, hee.)