First, with regard to privacy being free. I agree, than in an ideal society privacy would be considered a right, and no effort would be required to insure it. In my view it is necessary for the state to insure this right. This goes to the "if you were ever made dictator of a small island nation, what would be your first decrees?" Well, mine would be something to the effect of this: That we the citizens of unissa might preserve the individuality and freedom of the populous, prevent tyrrany and authortarian tactics, promote the right of men and women to develop in their own direction s, as this is most conducive to the rise of a great nation, I hereby decree that it shall be the unalienable right of citizens to hold their personal and public actions and duties in confidence. Further it shall be made to pass that the burden of ensuring such confidentiality shall rest on the state, and the state shall pass no law or decree that violates this right. Unfortunately, we all know that this is classified as "fantasy" I'd love for it to happen, and I would be quite proud to offer citizenship to all the cypherpunks (well most of you :) ) but in the words of a great man I once knew... "It Ain't gonna happen...." Privacy isn't free, you have to work for it in this country. I don't mind that. I sort of like the process. I have a problem when the state ACTIVELY tries to ELIMINATE privacy. I have an even WORSE problem when the state does so by serapitious means. I am disgusted by what's happening with regard to press releases and complicity of large corporations who are basically selling us out for a profit (A-hem T-eeem an-hem-d T-hem) I realized something suddenly that made me feel like I am growing more and more paranoid by the hour by the way. I noticed for the first time that these AT&T commercials that are airing lately have distinct propaganda trends... I never noticed it before but think about it. Lots of talk about freedom, individual plans, and a MAJOR ad campaign on T.V. complete with Arethra (sp) Franklin singing "Freedom....Freedom... FREEDOM!" Does this strike anyone else as odd or am I going crazy? I think I'm turning into a liberal! I can't take it! Look, it's obvious that security and liberty are a trade off. I'm an international relations schloar, with a concentration in intelligence, so that's not a leap of logic for me. What I don't understand is this: Of late, terrorist acts have been on the DECLINE. The world trade center was a big one, sure. But it's not the whole picture. So why the push now? We really don't NEED more security in the form of clipper and FBI bills right now... not in my view anyhow. Comparatively this is a safe nation. Even if you disagree with this point, it can be pointed out that you DO NOT need privacy invading tactics to prevent terrorism, or drug dealing. To me, drug sniffing dogs, metal detectors, x-ray machines are not a GREAT violation of privacy, I have little trouble tolerating these things and I accept them as part of life. Fine. But when it becomes obvious that government is taking an ACTIVE interest in things like my conversations and business practices, as well as opening the way for me and my children (I hope to have some some day) to be cataloged and followed and assigned a number and database for our health records and who knows what else from birth, I get offended. I WILL fight these initiaves, with civil disobedience if nothing else works. I have a feeling that there are like minded people out there, people who can tolerate some violations of absolute privacy in exchange for feeling that every plane you ride on is not at risk because of some psycho, and that less coke is going to find its way to schools. But who cannot tolerate AUTHORATARIAN regimes, and practices to make these assurances. We are in my opinion at a very dangerous time. VERY dangerous We are at a point where events have made isolationism more and more a concern, and the focus is more an more on the people of this nation rather than other issues. Events like the world trade center, and the media attention it brings threaten to bring more force to bear on the fragile balance between what I will accept and what government wants. On another note, how public is this mailing list. I mean the list of names here. How unlikely is it that we might be on a "watch-these-dangerous-activits-revolutionaries" black list somewhere...? uni@acs.bu.edu