Julian wrote: "* It's possible to wank without porn. We can reach places in our imagination that no amount of b realityb can take us. In my experience an orgasm that starts in the mind is *much* more fulfilling than one involving porn. It's also possible to reach orgasm without wanking (i.e. by having sex). " But the anti-child pornography laws proceed on the assumption that even non-commercial possession of computer generated images must be banned because inducing the stimulation or wanking is a legitimate societal interest to be regulated. It's classic thought crime control. Sure everyone can wank and have their thoughts, but only until the state manages a way to control what people think. If someone wrote a decentralized truly realistic fantasy Virtual Reality simulation in which everyone could get their desire without killing, maiming or molestating another, do you think the government would allow such a program to exist? I bet not. "Getting into bed with the porn producers risks alienating the feminist movement who would otherwise be naturally aligned with Tor's goals." You must be kidding. Google for Catharine Mackinnon and Andrea Dworkin and the Indianapolis pornography ordinance. The feminist movement has changed since the 1960s. These two leading feminists have called for the prohibition on hate speech and pornography. And only thanks to the ACLU did they not succeed in Indianapolis. The question is not whether someone likes pornography, but whether he/she believes the state should control it. If you believe that the state should regulate which material I view in my own home you can't in the long run be a friend of Tor's goals. Enforcement of the neo-feminist movement's censorship goals is no more friendly to Tor's goals than those of the Christian conservative movement. Aside from the failed war on drugs, there are three policy goals which often beget more censorship: Protect the children, national security and enforce copyright. I don't want censor happy feminists on my side. They are as toxic to free speech, privacy and anonymity as the RIAA. Fortunately, both the protection of hate speech and virtual child pornography is a settled constitutional question in the US, so the worst which can happen is that other nations f-ck up their own laws. _______________________________________________ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE