Cypherpunks as a spectator sport becomes interesting when a several intelligent, articulate, people start a productive rant. Emphasis on "productive." Unfortunately, this rant is rapidly degenerating into an emotional bickering between people who are capable of accomplishing much more. For the record, there are several Apple employees, some *very* high up in the food chain, who receive selected postings from Cypherpunks. For better or for worse, however, they are spared pipebomb-punks, Sternlight-punks, Ritalin-punks, and most of the other nonsense that permeates this mailing list. I, for one, would appreciate the chance to hear Tim May present "crypto-anarchy" and "crypto-privacy" -- in a much more coherent fashion than I would get at a physical cypherpunks meeting or from the mailing list. I'm not sure what Tim's consulting fee might be, but I'd be happy to contribute a six-pack of Anchor Steam if that would help. Vinnie is putting the "Mac Crypto" conference together in his spare time using "borrowed" facilities in a way that stays below Apple's "radar horizon". Think of it as a slightly more formal physical cypherpunks meeting. He may be able to scare up a budget for drinks and munchies, but don't expect a t-shirt. As for the "Mac is dead," I'll leave that to another time and place. Martin Minow minow@apple.com