I am rather shocked that after wading through hundreds of msgs of abuse of Nathaniel and FV I haven't seen one message of support; but perhaps I missed it. I agree that the original post seemed very self-serving and was poorly worded for this audience. However, that doesn't excuse people from reading it carefully and thinking about the implications. FV has argued time and again that their basic strength is that CC number aren't available for systematic secretive purloinage. The concern about collecting CC# on a large scale is one of the argument given for the importance of using encryption throughout the internet. Otherwise tapping the internet backbone has much the same properties. I thought we had already agreed that dumpster diving is a fundamentally smaller threat to the CC system than backbone tapping. FV is just pointing out that another systematic weakness exists in the CC/internet scheme. Whether this is a new, serious concern for internet commerce seems to be a useful and important topic for discussion. Fortunately, the discussion, acrimonious as it has been has produced fruit. It looks like Weld Pond's suggestion of using a random imagemap is an effective antidote. Making the attack harder by an order of magnitude at least. Ted Anderson