So Snow, Should your parents be (have been) allowed to pass curfew laws along with the rest of the community so that their wishes about you not going out could be enforced? Ryan ---------- Previous Message ---------- To: attila cc: cypherpunks From: snow @ smoke.suba.com @ smtp Date: 10/06/96 01:11:58 AM Subject: Statism/Theocracy What's the difference--LDS Attila said:
In <v03007808ae7af10d0afb@[207.167.93.63]>, on 10/04/96 at 09:03 AM, "Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> said: Frankly, we do not wish curfews, and there never were curfews before the immense immigration into the area, mostly from So. CA,
However, these people, Mormons (some good, some inactive) and
(inactive=bad?)
well, that prompted the curfew, but they found it also maintained the semblance of peacful family oriented community among the lost and alienated families --so it is apparently here to stay. other than the fact we are telling tparents who do not wish to manage their children they must keep them home or take them somewhere, what does the law do?
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>.Telling people when they >.can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling >.them what they can read and what they cannot. that was my initial reaction -you wouldn't tell me that! but consider the right of society to legislate and regulate in the common good, despite both my and your abhorence of law in an of itself.
GAK is for the "common good", after all, it is only the people who are doing wrong that will be hurt by having their data scanned by the Government, it is just maintaining decency standards.
it is an effective means of forcing parents who do not seem to care, or parents who wish to shift their responsibilities to social workers who are not available, they have a responsibility. what happens to the violators --few are arrested, they are asked to go home. there is no great wild-west roundup of teenaged cattle! any who resist or commit minor vandalism are taken to the center --but,
For most of my life I have had insomnia, and when I was in my early to mid teens, I used to wait until my parents had gone to sleep, and go out and wander the neighborhood, Mostly alone, sometimes until 2 or 3 in the morning (during the summer, not when I had to be at school). Why _shouldn't_ I be allowed to do this? In my case, it was against my parents wishes, but I still harmed nothing, commited no crime (there was no curfew where I lived). My father almost caught me (he knew I did it from time to time, but figured as long as I wasn't causing trouble, he wouldn't be able to stop me). Just because other children cause trouble, why should _mine_ be restricted? Just because it gives the APPERANCE OF MORALITY? I'll say that again, THE APREARANCE OF MORALITY. Forcing someone to follow a given set of rules doesn't make that person moral, it makes them a slave. Morality only comes in when there is choice. Also, the waters are calm on the surface, but what about underneath? What is going on behind closed doors? Here in the outerworld, we have fornication on the streets, but we know who is doing it, we _know_ who the problems are. Do you?
unlike every other city I have seen, they do not mix the 'miscreants' with the juvenile delinquents, repeat offenders, and the teenagers who are obviously on their way to the dead end.
Almost all teenagers are on their way to a dead end. It is called "Adulthood", which if you look at it a certain way looks a lot like A Dolt Hood. I don't necessarily think it is a bad idea to mix kids (mid to late teens) picked up for "real" crimes in with "real" criminals, but then I don't think that staying out late should be a crime. Fear can be a powerful motivator.
what is the penalty? call their parents for a ride home. they are not fingerprinted and mugged, etc. very few are required to even see a social worker. consistent repeat offenders eventually enter the system --as they should.
Really, I should be in "the system" because I like wandering around at night? Real libertarian of you.
>.I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced >.curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting >.this particular law), etc. actually, the curfew laws are local laws, and I reluctantly decided to support curfew laws for minors after looking at the means and results --it does provide an early point of intercepting behavioral patterns with the *parent* being the judge and warder, and hopefully give those parents a wakeup call they need to guide their children as they are fast approaching adulthood where they are fully accountable.
Mr. May's usage of "state" means "governing body" rather than "state of the union". But you knew that. There are many other "interception" points that can be utilized to identify children whose parents are not providing them with the state approved ideological underpinings, Let's take a look at some shall we? Your children do well in school correct? Straight A's in most classes? it is obvious that you are driving your children too hard, teaching them tp be overacheivers. You shouldn't push them so hard, they should stay at the level of their classmates. Ok, that was hyperbole. Seriously tho', if you talk to many "social workers" <pardon me--*spit*> they can give you certain behavior patterns that indicate a child is being abused in the home. They could (and I am sure some would like to) go so far as to include certain types of religious and political indoctrination as abuse. If the state (city/county) mandates it, and it gives the apperance of "stopping crime", or simply provides a smooth surface, is it worth it? alcohol is available at any large grocery store; it has not been
banned to any extent since prohibition, but not necessarily avail- able in rural areas.
Not in your area, and maybe not my LDS's, but try Pell City Alabama. Same mentality, different name on the church house door.
I do not think you can prohibit anything from adults --drugs,
Can, or should? Let _me_ run the DEA, and give me a good budget, and I will stop it. Yeah, people will die, but they are dying anyway.
certainly we are justified in ranting against any abridgement of our right to freely (and privately) communicate, freedom of *peaceful* assembly, a truly free press --certainly not the New World Order blinded press printing the official line dictated by political/economic Boss Tweeds of what is effectively an oligarchy --they do not possess common principles sufficient to even be called 'national socialists' (fascists).
Yet you argue for the abridgement of freedoms based on age. Does the state know better than a parent when a minor is old enough to be out after midnight?
or, there is a government like Washington where they are trying to, and may anyway, implement President Hillary's "It takes a Global Village" so the state can dictate everything and raise a new generation of robots in the mold of their revisionist history which we are now suffering by attrition....
Which really only pisses most people off because it is a different revisionist history than they want taught.
If Bubba and the President are reelected with a Democratic Congress, we will not recognize our once almost free country in
Or, he will push too far, too fast, and it will snap back in his face. Remember, Klinton can't do it without congressional approval. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com