hi timmy. we have reached a breakthrough in your psychotherapy in which you actually address me directly <g> you completely gloss over my point about Linux, because it demonstrates my arguments very well. those who work on Linux are very similar to cpunks. distributed all over the world, and they are united by a common desire/vision and mailing lists. you have an unexpressed hatred of some aspects of hacking, of course, so you find linux repulsive and incomprehensible. this list has always lacked vision, by *anyone*. a group is united by a vision. if you have no vision, you have nothing but a bunch of anarchists who cannot accomplish anything substantial together. want proof? how about the history of the last few years of mounting irrelevance of this list? what you get is miniature projects that may succeed or fail, and if they succeed, an implication is carried that they are "cpunk" projects. there are obviously no cpunk projects. and that's the weakness of this so-called "group". any time such a project is proposed by anyone, self-righteous anarchists such as yourself shoot it down. ok, mount one of your lame arguments that "this is only a mailing list. there are no projects". again, precisely. you want more out of this list, or less? every time I tell you how to get more, you say you want less. every time you complain you get less, I tell you how to get more. sure, let's have an immature debate society. we've had that for what, ~6 years or so? the time flies when you're having fun <g> aren't you somewhat ashamed that the recent EFF crack had *nothing* to do with anyone on this list? frankly, I think it's pretty lame. imagine the way a mailing list can help mobilize support and resources. we've seen glimpes in the past of this. instead Gilmore did it entirely behind the scenes, never announcing it to this list, because clearly no one here has the maturity to cooperate to complete a meaningful project. there are only complaints, as lead by the Lead Sniper. (wow, that's a funny term, with lots of implications, I think I might start using it more often!!!) btw, killed any cats lately?? a huge waste of talent, if you ask me, and the main reason that you have such a high turnover/attrition on this list. ever asked yourself why there is so much turnover/attrition here? but we're not going to get very far, with you conveniently deleting my key points as usual. stick your head in the digital /dev/null some more. see no VZN, hear no VZN, speak no VZN. truly your philosophy...!!! "eletrocracy"? I have no idea what you're talking about. whatever it is, it does sound pretty infantile!!! a useful straw man, I suppose. maybe if you elaborated it might refresh my memory <g>