Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 (fwd)

Here is a forward of the CFD where PGP was mentionned. I posted several off-topic messages to the CFD, to introduce theses peoples to encryption, digital signatures, e$, etc. For thoses who are curious about firearms related politics in Kanada, this it *the* forum for it. Take note that the Allan Rock discussed in the various posts is the former Canada Justice Minister, now Canada Health Minister, who fanatically drafted and frantically pushed bill C-68, the gun registration bill. Just so you know, now, in Kanada, simple possession of *any* firearms or some other weapons *is* a crime passible of 14 year of imprisonement, *unless* you get a permit that, in effect, waive that crime. Of course, they say that they make it simple and reasonable to get it, but what the authorities want is to disamr the population. Recently, they did not even shy out at saying it explicitely. Among their plans, the outright confiscation without compensation of a great number of now Verboten types of firearms. And you thought that the Kool Komrades were very far from you... JFA PGP key at w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon or at the MIT key server. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:03:08 -0600 From: Cdn-Firearms Digest To: cdn-firearms-digest@broadway.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 Cdn-Firearms Digest Thursday, September 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 013 In this issue: re: mor(e )on Bill C-68 Unique registration Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times Re: Carry Permits Police Function in Canada (mtoma) Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com Foundations of Canadian Life re: The Police Function in Canada antique guns With friends like these ... Re: More Moronic Ramblings research links Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force... Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:12:39 -0600 (CST) From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: re: mor(e )on Bill C-68

then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone. Someone once said that rifles were designed for hunting and, thereby, putting food on the table, but handguns were designed for one purpose and one purpose only: to kill people. The same goes for automatic weapons and assault rifles. So get rid of them altogether (and to hell with the target shooters - let them use air pistols!).

"Automatic weapons" are machine guns, i.e. they are "fully automatic" (can fire many rounds with one trigger squeeze). "Assault rifles" are machine guns (of a specific type). There are 4500 Canadians who may own registered machine guns, and do. There has never been a registered machine gun used in a crime or suicide by its owner. I've never found an incident of one being stolen and used. So why ban them? There are one million registered pistols, used safely every year. Less than five are involved in a homicide each year, including justifiable homicides. More than 80% of the 600 annual homicides do not involve a pistol, let alone a registered pistol. So why ban them? If I can be trained and trusted to own use a car/chainsaw/airplane/ whatever safely, I should be able to be trained and trusted to own and use _any_ kind of firearm safely. Period. What's more dangerous: Using a gun at a range or flying an aircraft over a city? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:16:32 -0600 (CST) From: SBKracer Subject: Unique registration I own a Remington, WWII era, 1911A1 with a new serial number stamped over the spot where the original would have been. In fact some of the original number can still be seen. What are the chances this handgun is uniquely registered? The new serial number is a 5 digit number but I have NO IDEA where the number came from, who supplied it or who stamped it on. I am at least the third owner (that I know of) of this particular pistol since it entered Canada. I also own an Allan rock special which with the slide removed has NO markings at all save for a four digit number stamped on the backstrap. Could this number possibly be a patent number? I don't know how many digits typically make up a patent number. The pistol is an Arizzabalaga Terrible (at least that is what it says on the registration certificate) made circa 1920. Nice name for a gun huh? The "Terrible!" Specially considering it is chambered for that manstopping 6.35 (.25ACP) cartridge. Peter Cronhelm ZX-7 Carbon Fibre Racing Machine SBKracer YSR/YZ80 The Little Beast "I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged." - -Sons of Freedom- "Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!" - -Marilyn Manson- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:17:29 -0600 (CST) From: "John E. Stevens" Subject: Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times skeeter wrote:

Claire Hoy has a good column on "Free Speech" in this week's The Hill Times.

http://www.thehilltimes.ca/hilltimes/hoy.html

AND while you're there, take time to read: Plan to introduce bills in Senate sparks fury in government and opposition benches. It's sometimes kind of scarry how our democratic government subtly attempts to circumvent democracy. [sometimes?... -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:47:21 -0600 (CST) From: Juha Askola Subject: Re: Carry Permits Yes, you can take your friends handgun provided you are in possession of a valid carry permit and green slip belonging to the gun you're carrying. I don't know the law on this one but I would play it safe. When I purchased my .45, I just took the receiver part to the police but still with a trigger lock. Took a little arguing to make them understand that they don't need or require slide or barrel to register a gun, it was fun. Chao, Juha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:48:44 -0600 (CST) From: someone@inter.net Subject: Police Function in Canada (mtoma)

[Moderator: This may or may not be "official policy." Without knowing the context or the original author it is difficult to evaluate. HTB]

[snip]

This particular document is by far the scariest federal gun control document I have ever seen. In short it outlines stategies for gun confiscation and prohibition orders for gun owning citizens and the general disarmament of the populace.

[snip] Even if this document is a complete fake, which we have no way of finding out, it is very possible something similar is in the works. Just look at UK and Australia! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:49:33 -0600 (CST) From: someone@inter.net Subject: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com In previous issues of the CFD, the issues of using and the governments' attempts to restrict the use of Pretty Good Privacy encryption software (www.pgp.com) was discussed and compared to restricting the use of firearms. I noticed a lot of users of this list have their PGP fingerprint attached to their message, which is great. However, a lot of people are reluctant to use PGP because it was difficult to use and install. For those using Eudora (16-bit or 32-bit), PGP Inc. has a special offer to have a full version of PGP 5.0 for Eudora plug-in, which supports both RSA and DSS/DH algorithm, for US$5 (five dollars). Personally, I think it is money well spent, with governments creeping up on us, you never know when you HAVE TO encrypt all your email. Go to www.pgp.com for more details. I'm in no way shape or form related to PGP Inc, Qualcomm, or anyone who might benefit from the sale of PGP or Eudora. I'm just an immigrant to this great country and would love to preserve the freedom we enjoy. [Also visit the PGP resources listed under "Freedom sites" at the cdn-firearms home page. http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/ -- Skeeter] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:51:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Geoff Stokes" Subject: Foundations of Canadian Life Recently, a local reporter found himself in a precarious position. He's been reporting on a ticket fixing case and he has a good source close to the investigation. My point is that his article seems to echo the fears some members of the RFC have with regard to the latest gun control scheme:

From the article entitled: Call Threatens Foundation of Canadian Life.

"Two weeks ago I received a thinly veiled threat from someone who is either a policeman or somehow connected with the police...Then it became clear that it was the very idea that a pion like me would dare meddle with the RCMP...Finally, he said, If you start messing around with the big boys, you're going to get an education in life...the fact that most people believe that the police, the ones who are supposed to protect us, are capable of the kind of harassment and intimidation that my anonymous caller alluded to...To date, I'm happy to report that there have been no unexplained searches of my vehicle, no funny clicks on my phone and nothing to suggest that I am anyone's particular target...But I don't even like thinking that those things are a possibility, not in this country." hmmmm..., sounds an awful lot like what it may be like under Bill C-68 concerning increased police discretion; or how an uncooperative, non-complier may be treated in future..., or am I really going paranoid?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:37 -0600 (CST) From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: re: The Police Function in Canada

From: SBKracer

[The moderator wrote: This may or may not be "official policy." Without knowing the context or the original author it is difficult to evaluate. HTB]

Sunday at a gunshow in Cow Town I got a copy of a news letter containing a Federal document on gun control dated 1977. This document had been e-mailed by .

The excerpt printed in digest number 10 (volume 2) was scary, but I think the one below is worse. ___________________________________________________________________ As regards the Police Function in Canada, prior to passage of the foregoing it was the opinion of the administrations: 1. That in face of mass civil disobedience the use of Force had limited capabilities.... 2. That in face of mass civil disobedience any display of available Force would not have credibility.... ....as far as an armed and organized Public was concerned and it was felt in the interests of the Function that it was desirous to ensure the Public be discretely but effectively disarmed over a period of the forthcoming 5 years. The foregoing is not entirely the opinion of the administrations of the Function, but is one which has been voiced generally even at the rank and file level...that being that the absence of firearms in the hands of the Public in general would increase the safety of a Patrolmans work. With the passage of the Firearms Section of the Criminal Code of Canada Amendments, having been predetermined that in regards to the Functions ability as a Control and Enforcement Agency there was: 1. A lack of personnel suitably indoctrinated at specific assignment levels and sectors within the proposed Control Structure. 2. A requirement for the adequate indoctrination and training time, 3. A requirement for time to phase in the various levels and sectors of the proposed Control Structure independently of one and another in a manner which would not create alarm, nor allow premature rapport. 4. A requirement for time to nullify the credibility of alarmists and dissenters. ___________________________________________________________________ This document was obtained from MP Peter Elzinga. I had been faxed a copy back in 1994, but the source was "unknown". We may never know if it was/is for real... read it all in Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #860 http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/cdn-firearms/Digests/v01n800-899/v01n860 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:15:14 -0600 (CST) From: dcmiller@mail.island.net (douglas c miller) Subject: antique guns I think the Dave's answer in regard to the antique guns in digest V2 #12 was a little weak. My first objection is that an 1864 Enfield MkII* is probably a Snider Enfield and as such would be .58 caliber and I very much doubt that it would be found in .303. I think that Dave is mistaking it for a Martini Enfield. His second comment re Winchesters would have been far more accurate if he had stated Winchester repeaters/carbines came in the following models. The model 1885 is a single shot in high wall and low wall models and I don't believe would ever have been referred to as a saddle ring carbine. What is perhaps more instructive of the questions posed is the error or risk of registering one's own guns as illustrated by the owner who works in or in conjunction with a museum appears to have made at least one descriptive mistake. Just my $.02 worth D.C. Miller ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:54:14 -0600 (CST) From: jean hogue Subject: With friends like these ...

...

I am an archaeologist by profession and work for the **************** government. ... On the other hand, if there is really that great a concern over public safety (as opposed to the amount of revenue that can be generated by this punitive registration/licensing system), then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone.

I think Dave's reply to this was far too polite. Yet another case where this quote by Pastor Martin Niemoller is so appropriate: "In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. They came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade Unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade Unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up." Just under what logic does this government archaeologist justify banning the best-behaved guns in the country ? Several thousands (I believe 5,000) automatic weapons were lawfully registered before 1979 by non-military, non-police law-abiding citizens. Not a single one has ever been involved in a crime of violence. As for automatic weapons being reserved strictly to the police and military, two things: 1- the only two cases of homicides committed with automatic weapons legally registered were: a) military: Corporal Lortie killed three in the Quebec National Assembly (provincial govm't) -- 1985 or 1986; b) police: in Rock Forest, police fired a burst from an Uzi, through the motel room door, killing a labourer police mistakenly assumed to be the hold-up suspect they were looking for -- early 1980's. 2- the government archaeologist sounds just like Allan "Alibi Al" Rock: "I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only people in this country who should have guns are police officers and soldiers." Allan Rock, Canada's previous Minister of Justice Maclean's "Taking Aim on Guns", April 25, 1994, p 12 Pay attention to the man behind the curtain. A recent "study" by police of guns recovered at crime scenes "concluded" that "legal" guns (they meant unrestricted) were used in crime far more often than handguns and evil semi-automatic "assault" rifles. The government archaeologist's toys are deemed by police to be even more dangerous than the toys being condemned by the archaeologist. I have really lost patience for this mentality of throwing off "wolf meat" from the dogsleigh to escape the wolves. The archaeologist is simply advocating that the gun owner community sell off owners of handguns and semi-automatics so that people like the archaeologist can be left alone with their more politically-correct toys. All this based on nothing more than an _iffy_ "concern". Thanks for the back-stabbing and dream on! As Max Headroom said: with friends like these, who needs an oenema? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:47 -0600 (CST) From: dons@Cadabratech.com (Don Shesnicky) Subject: Re: More Moronic Ramblings Here's an interesting story along this theme... I caught this one on CBC radio two days ago while driving into work. It was an excerpt from something that, I believe it was Martin Bell from the BBC, said during a book presentation in Ottawa. He stated something to the effect that the media could never be detached from the stories they covered. As an example he put forth this story, which was said to be true and which I will put into my own words: It seems that a reporter visiting Bosnia wanted to do a story on snipers. A Bosnian commander told him to go with one of his snipers. They crawled into place and after the sniper took a look out onto a street told the reporter to take a peek and tell him what he saw. After looking the reporter said he could see two civilians standing in the street. The sniper asked him which one should die. The reporter realizing that he suddenly didn't want to be there explained at length to the sniper that he didn't want either of them to die. As he turned to go he heard two shots. He turned back to the sniper who said "Too bad, you could have saved one of them". Powerful story. Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:20:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" Subject: research links A couple of good links from the Cdn-Firearms Home Page (under "research"): http://www.nra.org/research/rihome.html and http://www.nra.org/research/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:28 -0600 (CST) From: griffith@comnet.ca Subject: Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...

...

and an 1885 Winchester saddle-ring carbine w/octagonal barrel in very fine condition.

Winchesters went through Models 1873, to 1876, to 1886, to 1892, to 1894. Which do you have, and in what calibre? There is no Model 1885.

I got stuck with one of them fake model 1885 too. I guess I should of been more suspicious when the guy who sold it to me kept referring to it as a "High Wall". Sure is pretty. but i ain't worked out yet how do I load the magazine. Gerald Griffith " The easiest thing in the world to achieve is the effective disapproval of any sort of uncritically vested authority. " < Alexander King > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:05:49 -0600 (CST) From: "David A. Tomlinson" Subject: Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges Thursday, September 25, 1997 Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges By SKANA GEE -- The Daily News The victim of a home invasion in Middle Sackville last month now has his own date with a judge. Clarence Joseph Arsenault, 60, was charged yesterday with illegal storage of firearms, stemming from an investigation into the robbery at his house Aug. 27. "They were kept in a room that wasn't secured very well and they were not secured very well," said Lower Sackville RCMP Const. Lynn Tardif. "They were kind of just in disarray." She said Mounties seized about 60 handguns, rifles and shotguns, including those that were stolen during the home invasion, during which Arsenault's elderly mother and seven-year-old grandson were tied up with rope and duct tape. Return Oct. 1 The two men charged in that incident return to Bedford provincial court Oct. 1 to make their election. The charge against Arsenault alleges he stored restricted firearms without failing to render them inoperable by a secure locking device and storing them in a locked container or room "that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open." "It's one charge dealing with all the different firearms," said Tardif. She said many people in the community knew the Lakeview Avenue man was a gun collector, a situation aggravated by the fact his weapons were "easy to get at." Just after the home invasion, Arsenault told The Daily News he had begun to clean the guns "for the next gun show." He also said he expected to be charged. Tardif said police sympathize with Arsenault's family for the ordeal they experienced, but they maintain the charge is warranted. "It put everybody in a bad situation as far as I'm concerned," she said. "We have a job to do. We have no choice, but we also want to raise awareness about this kind of thing." Tardif said she could only speculate on what might have occurred if the weapons had been stored differently. "I don't know if you can necessarily prevent the robbery, but it would have made it a lot harder for them," she said. Arsenault will be arraigned Nov. 19. Joshua Alexander Pelley, 23, and Kenneth Wayne Beazley, 20, are charged with committing robbery by stealing guns while using threats of violence; break, enter and theft; and wearing a mask while committing an indictable offence in connection with the home invasion. The NFA has supplied Mr. Arsenault with transcripts of court decisions that indicate the charge against him [CC s. 86(3), storage "in violation of a regulation"] cannot be used because it is a violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. THE NFA STRONGLY CONDEMNS THE CANADIAN FIREARMS CENTRE FOR NOT MAKING ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS AWARE OF THE DEFECTS IN THESE "STORAGE" CHARGES. THE CFC, BY ITS REFUSAL TO DISTRIBUTE INFORMATION ABOUT IMPROPER CHARGES LIKE THIS, IS CONTRIBUTING TO ABUSIVE ENFORCEMENT. PLEASE WRITE TO THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND DEMAND JUSTICE! IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY SIMPLE FOR THE CFC TO DEVOTE ONE ISSUE OF THEIR "BULLETIN" TO THE PROBLEMS OF CC S. 86(2) AND (3), BUT THEY INSIST ON DELIVERING USELESS INFORMATION AND REFUSE TO PUBLISH IN AREAS LIKE THIS WHERE ABUSE IS RAMPANT. THEY WILL NOT PUBLISH ANYTHING THAT REDUCES THE ABUSE LEVELS. AND THAT IS WRONG. CC s. 86(3) imposes a sentence of up to two years imprisonment. The charge leaves no room for a defence of "due diligence" (I didn't do it the way the regulations said to, but I did do it in a way that had the same or a better effect). That being so, storage in the alternative way leaves one guilty of the offence, and that is a violation of the Charter right to liberty. The accused can be sent to prison for up to two years -- when the accused has done nothing wrong. That is a violation of the Charter right to "fundamental justice." The R. vs. Smillie case (BC Supreme Court) ruled that CC s.86(3) violates the Charter as indicated above, and therefore cannot be used. R. vs. Finlay (Supreme Court of Canada) ruled that CC s. 86(2) and (3) are regulatory law rather than proper criminal law, and that therefore a proper defence of "due diligence" shall succeed. Dave Tomlinson, NFA FOCUS: In trouble? Know someone who is in trouble? Learn of someone who is in trouble? Get in touch with the person in trouble, tell him or her to get help from the NFA. Call (403) 439-1394. ------------------------------ End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 ********************************* List Submissions: cdn-firearms-digest@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Mailing List Commands: majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Moderator's e-mail address: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca List owner's e-mail address: ab133@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca Web Site: http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/cdn-firearms/homepage.html FTP Site: ftp://cdn-firearms.ml.org/pub/cdn-firearms/ Digest Back-issues: FTP (cd pub/cdn-firearms/Digests) or visit the Cdn-Firearms web site (above) or send the following command to majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: get cdn-firearms-digest v01.n987 end (987 is the digest issue number and 01 is the volume) To subscribe, leave the Subject: line blank and e-mail the next 4 lines to majordomo@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca: subscribe cdn-firearms-digest subscribe cdn-firearms-alert subscribe cdn-firearms-chat end (To unsubscribe, use "unsubscribe" instead of "subscribe".) 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