At 10:17 AM -0700 8/1/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Now here's the funny part. In California, (with some specific exceptions) carrying a concealed knife is a felony, while carrying a concealed pistol is a misdemeanor (for the first weapons offense). So given the relative severities of the laws, why in the world would you carry a knife instead of a gun? (Insert stupid joke here about an engineer bringing a knife to a gun fight.)
Aside from the other issues, I'll address this point just on its own merits. I know of many arguments that a knife can be gotten into a fight and used effectively _faster_ than a gun can, especially in very close quarters. (Which is where a mugging is likely to occur.) This is much debated in places like misc.survivalism and martial arts groups, but views are heard on both sides. Cops of course carry guns, but then they are likely to engage targets from further distances than most of us can when suddenly attacked. I think it plausible that inside an arm's length radius, a man with a knife can incapacitate a man with a gun faster than vice versa. Some expert knife folks _claim_ (no opinion offered here) that they can close a 15-foot gap and incapacitate a man reaching for a gun faster than he can get go to the gun, aim, and fire (let alone hit on the first or Nth shot). Whatever. Knives are easier to carry in urban situations without causing ANY legal problems. Knives also have other uses; I use mine nearly everyday for some task or another. Next, the laws about knives, concealed or otherwise, are complicated...and are seldom-enforced even as written. The knife Sandy saw was not even concealed: it was a single-edged Cold Steel Safe-Keeper, in a belt sheath. _Some_ prosecutors might claim it was a "push knife," but: a) Push knives are not banned, even by California's bizarre laws. It's just not one of the "banned" forms (ballistic knives, shurikens, sword canes), and it sure ain't "concealed" if it's in a belt sheath. And the sharpening on only one edge is yet more evidence that it ain't a "dagger" (though I see plenty of SCA people blithely carrying sheathed daggers, even stuck in belt loops under robes and other clothing, and hence "concealed"--no cop in the land will bust someone in this situation). (A useful reference is http://home.earthlink.net/~jkmtsm/calaw.html, which also has links to the relevant California codes.) b) California changed its laws about concealment of knives to allow _far_ more deadly knives to be freely carried, even concealed.I usually carry a quick-opening (_very_ quick-opening) Benchmade folder. I carried the Cold Steel because it was open carry, hence no issue of concealment. And since it wasn't a banned form, even by the pre-'96 rewrite of the laws, it wasn't illegal. c) Even with the old laws, when was the last time there was a knife prosecution, as opposed to busting someone for unlicensed carry of a handgun? The latter outnumber the former by probably 1000-to-1, even though carry of knives in various "concealed" ways (in purses, under coats, in backpacks, in the tops of boots, etc.) probably outnumbers concealed carry of handguns by a factor of 100-to-1. Do the math. d) The encounter Sandy describes took place in a conference room inside Cygnus Support offices in an office complex. Last I checked, this was not public property, not even by today's liberal standards. In fact, no different from my demonstrating a Glock or SIG at a Cypherpunks meeting held at my house. Now if Cygnus Support had a problem, or the owner of the leased facilities had a problem, they could have told me to put the knife away (though this actually makes it even _more_ concealed, as anyone who follows the debate knows--it's the opinion of some that the only way to get a kitchen knife home from a department store without _technically_ violating the concealed carry laws is to have it in a locked box). e) Most cops would rather have people carrying concealed knives, a la folders, than wearing knives on their belts. Something about scaring the horses, even if open carry is legally the more "technically correct" thing (especially pre''96) to do. Now, would I carry a knife into one of the Del Torto Cypherpunks meetings held (foolishly) inside a San Francisco police training facility? No. Yet another reason I wouldn't go to such a CP meeting. A foolish meeting location, counter to nearly everything we once supported. But carrying a perfectly legal knife in a perfectly legal way (open carry, unconcealed) on private property, displaying no "intent" to use it illegally (*)...what does Sandy have to complain about? (* "Intent" shows up in a lot of the California, Colorado, and other cases involving knives taken from suspects during pat-downs. But since I was legal in all ways, I won't even open this can of worms.) My reply to Sandy at the time was what I generally say to anyone who lectures me on laws. I'm more aware than most of what the laws say. I don't need busybodies lecturing me on their opinion of what the law allows and doesn't allow. For Sandy to attempt to bring me to the attention of the cops remains despicable. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns