On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote:
Tim said that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue. Jim said that Tim is entirely wrong, that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue. It's true that they give different reasons, but I can't see that there's a fundamental conflict here.
No, I said she should be able to sue. To say that a person should not be able to sue if they feel they have been wronged simply because somebody wants to make a profit and such an action might impact that profit is NOT acceptable behaviour from a civil society based on democratic ideals.
Also, Jim says that "Democratic theory demands that..." Theories don't demand things, people do, but most people who like democracy demand that whatever the majority wants, it gets. (And some say, it ought to get it good and hard.)
Actually theories do demand, in the sense of compliance or adherence. If a theory says that a particular boundary condition must apply in order to apply (eg socialism equates to government ownership and management of all property including people) and a particular instance doesn't comply then it's clear another theory is required. It is the same sort of definition for 'demand' as that used by people to decide compliance as well. Your distinction is actually a false one.
Some theories about democracy say that this will always be good, because most people are mostly good; some say that this will be inherently right because it's what Da People want; some say that it may not be all that good but you can do a lot worse with most of the available alternatives, and that if you don't settle for that the worse alternatives will take over.
We're not talking about what people say. We are talking about the axiomatic requirements of theories and how to apply them to both pedantic as well as real world examples. The basic axiomatic definition of a democracy is pretty simply, the citizens of the government each get a vote in what that government will do. The details, whether it might be direct vote or through a bicamaral house or some other mechanism, still don't change that fundamental definition. No realistic theory about democracy says anything about how individuals will behave. If anything it is an open admission that people are so diverse and different in goals and desires that it can't be encompessed within a central organizational approach (eg socialism). The power of democracy, and the failure of socialism, fascism, anarchism, libertarianism, etc. is that it not only recognizes that no single set of goals will satisfy everyone. It recognizes that everyone has a say in what happens and why. It further, at least in most applications it appears, seems to recognize the right of minorities to be protected in their distinctions. In general any time a person feels that anothers behaviour has infringed their free expression has a right to review by a 3rd party (ie a court).
Tim, on the other hand, believes that in a free society that if you want to run a business you can (or at least you can try). Jim repeatedly asserts that running a business is a privilege that somebody, I guess Da Majority, graciously grants you, and can take away if they want, and that it's somehow not part of freedom.
As I've explained before, a business is the espression of the right to pursuit happiness. But the point that you and Tim always leave off is that you have that right UNTIL IT INFRINGES ANOTHER. You habitually ignore that others have equivalent rights you demand for yourself. In short, liberty for me but not for thee. Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means for one group of people to oppress and control another. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------