Indeed. There are two types of freedoms at issue here: establishment and free exercise, which the Framers thought were complementary and the Supreme Court has said "occasionally overlap." There were three ideological positions that drove the clause forward: those who wanted to prevent corruption of the church, those who wanted to prevent corruption of the state (such as Jefferson), and those who wanted to protect the church from the state. I haven't come across documents written by the Founders or cases that say the "state CAN support one religion over another." Cites, please? The cass I'm familiar with suggest exactly the opposite. The Supremes believe in "the established principle that the Government must pursue a course of complete neutrality toward religion." Supporting one religion over another violates the rule against "forbidden effects." As Tim said, our new friend's interpretation is somewhat bizarre. -Declan On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:
At 9:09 PM -0700 9/15/98, Jaeger wrote:
well, the first amendment is what I expected to be used... unfortunately, the phrase "...wall of separation between church and state" is not taken from the first amendment. It is taken from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson... and the meaning is not that church shouldn't have an effect on the state. The state CAN support one religion over another.
Ah, it's the appearance of a new ranter arguing for some bizarre, idiosyncratic interpretation of the Bill of Rights and suchlike. Mr. Jaeger, meet Mr. Choate.
Your notion that the state can support one religion over another so long as it does not "restrict" the other will surely be news to the many who have studied this issue for centuries. In particular, all those legal decisions which got Christian manger scenes removed from public buildings, and which got "Jesus Loves Sinners, Even Jews" removed from our coinage, will surely now have to be reversed.
The state CAN make laws that encourage the practice of any one particular religion, as long as the laws do not RESTRICT the PRACTICE of other religions.
Bizarre. Try Ritalin. This has helped some list members cope.
--Tim May
(This space left blank pending determ. of acceptability to the gov't.) ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.