-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Currently, I am not sure what the charter of cypherpunks really stands for, if anything. As it stands, the list has a far more erudite group than the list it probably should be. certainly more privacy and social engineering issues resulting from the deprivation of privacy than code. I don't believe Cypherpunks was ever intended to be a technical forum; I was not on for the first few months so I missed the formative discussions of the elitist few, most of whom, other than founder tcmay, have left for greener pastures. In the beginning years, there was a substantial amount of crypto code, etc. passed around and argued. However, the few of us who do code, do not generate enough messages relating to code to warrant a list; therefore the passionate interests which travel as coders' baggage seem to explode and others, some technically competent and some not, join the list and the circus goes on. Frankly, I have hired and "mind-fucked" (pardon my french, for lack of a more descriptive expression) scores of hacker grade philosophers. That is exactly where it runs: they are philosophers first and creative coders second. As to their knowledge of philo- sophy, and the direction of their creative talents to a logical and usable conclusion, they score a fat zero as by and large they are geeks and idealistic social nerds. --hence the need for subtle background manipulation to make these philosopher-coders think your design is actually their great philosophic-coder design. Yes, and _never_ assign two of them to the same compartment: the code never works --absolutely will not share tasks. Common interface boundaries? No problem for their minds, but too creatively selfish to code associative modules. For that reason alone, I hold C++ in contempt: a black box that is _supposed_to_ to look for 'this' and give you 'that.' C++ is an ignorant managers ultimate wet dream: "reusable code containers for disposable programmers." For some reason, Bjorn elucidated a strenuous objection to my statement. <g> For what it's worth, the above is my perception of cypherpunks: an interesting collection of philosopher kings, some of whom are putting their convictions to the means of thwarting the common enemy. It is no accident most subscribers, and certainly all the doers, are anti-government with a preference for social anarchy, the anarchy tempered by some level of realization that the mass of humanity can not govern itself in a society which is inherently evil. However, if the Libertarian Party can not field a better candidate than Harry Brown, anarchy, or a premature dictatorship, it will be. The US is in the last laugh of the oligarchy at this point in time. In <1.5.4.32.19961218084853.005de95c@popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 12/18/96 at 12:48 AM, stewarts@ix.netcom.com said: ::Attila wrote, :: symposium were Dr. Jack C. Westman of the University of :: Wisconsin-Madison, author of "Licensing Parents: Can We :: Prevent Child Abuse and Neglect?" and Professor David T. :: Lykken of the University of Minnesota, author of "The :: Antisocial Personalities." Westman and Lykken are the :: most prominent advocates of a system of parental :: licensure in which parents would have to be certified :: "competent" by the government before being permitted to :: raise a child. :: ::and blanc wrote :: Someone needs to remind this Senator Lykken what happened in Romania, :: when the beleaguered citizen-units finally took their 'noble', social :: engineering leader Ceausescu, put him up against a wall and :: shot him. :: I do not believe they gave him the benefit (?) of the wall. Ceausescu, like all "communist" dictators of this century, was just that: a dictator falsely claiming to be the 'Great Father' who will right all the wrongs, put too many chickens in each pot, and generally hold your hand while his local version of the Gestapo permanently eliminates dissent. It appears to works until the state has drained the natural and human resources of value, further accelerated by corruption and the increasing apathy of the people who no longer produce more than a subsistence living at best. ::Fortunately, Lykken appears to just be a professor, not a legislator, ::so he can spend your money but can't tell you what to do. ::He's obviously also a subject of his book...... out of curiosity I was poking around a bit; he apparently has legislative backers. I would be surprised if the bill made it out a subcommittee hearing. however, his theory melds nicely with the intentions of superbitch; there is no doubt in my perception of her '...Village' --superbitch is heading for the nursery of "Logan's Run" and the surrogate nanny super-machines. --35+ years ago the book? I did not see the movie which may or may not have been able to deal with the concept of enforced euthanasia at age 21. Super- bitch must have seen the movie too many times, or slept with the book in her early pubescent dreams. ::Before we go licensing parents, we ought to license people who ::want to be Big Brothers...... License them? Why license them before we hang them? ::[This didn't seem to be cypherpunks material any more...] Actually, it is: invasion of privacy; no secure communica- tions, and all the other falderol. - -- I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMrgsD704kQrCC2kFAQH53gQAomp4242ItlDhZpLijYtsyrq/ZQNFRljs GRxBjNJeKX2FgId9B5LOg+nhSQ2WUI8m26km8Qlo2pnqjJVDa+aSCJg70ljHqBrT vDKBx/IHX9LeJGgFsjUBz//qJvclwt2Amk678/vm72c8yXF1nECc8d2JaFPDbrXB BC2r6AkTN9s= =sbYD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----