Hi all, Because none of these issues have ever been tested in a court of law any comments I or any other person makes (even if a lawyer) is simply personal opinion. To find out what is 'really' going on we will have to simply wait for that first case. Forwarded message:
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 22:28:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> Subject: Re: Tolerance (fwd)
A. Where does Jim get the terms of the contract he implies from the simple word "public"? As far as I can see, he simply made it up from whole cloth. Interesting, but totally without any legal basis.
Public - of or pertaining to the people; not private or secret; open to general use; accessible to all; serving the people. Community or its members; a section of community. Making known to the public; proclamation; printing in a book, etc. for sale or distribution. To make widely known; to advertise. The state of being generaly known; notoriety; advertisement. I first learned about the cpunks list in Mondo 2000 several years ago not long after I got PGP 1.0 off Adelante BBS in Co. Wasn't Eric's girlfriend involved in Mondo 2000? (Hi Jude, I think we will have a RoboFest this year in Austin, as always you are invited) Which would indicate a certain level of premeditation regarding letting people know of the list. I think that qualifies as public, I also think a court would accept that argument. The bottem line is that the list operator crossed that line whether they were aware of it or not. If they feel uncomfortable with this then they should consider very strongly dropping the list or enacting some form of registration more preferential than majordomo's subscribe system. This registration should clearly define what is and is not allowed on this list.
B. I'm unaware that the Cypherpunks list has ever been advertised as "public" by the list owner.
It has appeared in many publications which are intended for general or 'public' distribution in every one of those publications it was made clear that anyone was welcome and the subscription address was provided. The list operators ignorance of the consequences of their actions in no way alleviates them of the consequences of those actions.
C. Combining A & B, I know of know instance where the owners of the Cypherpunks list ever made any indication that they were adhearing to the Byzantine interpretation of contract law as suggested by Jim. (It sure doesn't comport to what I learned in my Contracts classes.)
It isn't my interpretation. Perhaps you should have paid better attention in class. These issues have never been tested in a court of law in the US in regards to computer networks and their special nature.
A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open to the public.
I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, mall, etc. is considered public.
Actually, it's the law in ALL states in the union since the Public Accomidations Act was enacted some time in the '60s (with the possible exception of Texas, I guess).
Not in Texas. We recently passed a law (Jan. 8) which permits citizens legaly registered to carry concealed weapons. Because the way the law was worded it was made clear in many newspapers and such that the ONLY way that business could prohibit patrons from entering their premises with those weapons was because they were PRIVATE property and therefore excluded from the constraints of the law. [When I worked at UT the rationale that was used to throw the dumpster divers off campus was that even though it was a publicly funded school by taxes it was private property (didn't make sense to me then or now). I can also state unequivacly that if the UTPD catch you on campus after 10pm or before 6AM w/o proof of either being a current student or staff consider it a graceful and considerate officer if they only escort you off campus.] Even now there is a big discussion here over whether this is realy a strong enough distinction. It is only a matter of time before a case comes up here to test even this limitation of private ownership (which I happen to support, a person with a gun on my private property is definately subject to my desires and wants, they represent a clear and present danger. If they don't then why do they need to register the weapons and why are they classed 'deadly weapons'?). The really sad part is that it will probably be another one of those shoot outs at Wendy's in Waco or some such nonesense as some loony toon goes postal. I wonder if that was what Jeffeson meant about watering the tree of liberty with blood? If my business property is really public simply because I am open to the public then I feel the police have a responsibility to provide an officer on my premises for whatever hours I am open for business to protect me, my property, and my patrons just like they do at the courthouse, tax accessors office, etc. They also have a responsibility to help assist in the operation and funding of my business (something I oppose strongly) since they have now found my business to be public; as a matter of fact they can help pay my damn taxes. For the record Florida and every other state with 'Right To Carry' laws looks at it this way. It is the only way under the current statutes to allow businesses to control access by gun toting folks. Now there is one caveat that most of you will have caught. That is the definitions of public above. In short, we have a circular argument as the law is worded now. Logicaly the courts have two recourses. They can first declare that no agency has the right to regulate gun ownership and possession (what I want to see) or else regardless of the 2nd, nobody has the right to carry a weapon on their person in public, since police are not awarded special consideration from constitutional law this would mean they could not carry a weapon on their side in public. So the courts eventualy must either refuse to review the case or else they must make some major change in the current law which goes against the government either way. Either everyone gets to wear weapons or nobody including the police get to carry them. Either way with the last two the police are in a situation where they are less likely to employ force for enforcement since they are no longer the strong side in the 'discussion'.
Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using public monies.
Like the Cypherpunks list? Citation, please.
The Cpunks list isn't a place. It is a steam of characters. Does the list reside on my computer? It does at least to some degree since I obviously have access to discuss these issues with you. It also resides on your computer as well as the thousand or so subscribers. It resides at least in part on the screen of my crt, the RAM in my computer, the network cable, the ISDN line, my providers router, my brain, the EM emission of the computer, etc. ad nauseum. So there is no single 'place' where the list resides, any more than a single place that an idea resides. This whole issue is the reason that I contend that eventualy it will be seen clearly that postings on usenet, public accessible mailing lists, irc channels, etc. are actualy automaticaly public domain in regards to their content. At some point I feel that it will turn out that unless you encrypt your data or place copyright symbols on it with special, and likely convoluted, riders allowing various distributions and storing via computer networks the author of computer text such as this will grant all rights and privileges to the work to the public automaticaly. This belief is the reason that I am interested in crypto, outside the simple curiosity I have about nature. I don't believe the cpunks list has ever been involved in a legal case. As a matter of fact this issue has never been tested in a court of law. Perhaps we should look at forcing a case. The best strategy would be for Eric to throw somebody off the list sureptitously (sp? I put the dictionaries back and I ain't walking over there again...sorry) and then for that person to bring a civil suit alleging infringement of civil liberties (ie equal access under the law). Eric would claim the list is private while the expunged user would claim it was public. We would of course have to resolve the cost issue first. I have two lawyers on retainer for my businesses but I don't believe either would touch a non-commerical case like this would be and I don't have anywhere near the personal capital to finance it myself. As a added bonus we could pick a handicapped person and they could sue under the various laws relating to those issues as well. This would get the whole issue of handicapped access to computer technology to be explored. Currently the handicapped (eg blind) find GUI interfaces nearly unusable. It would be pretty weird (to me) to see court rule that every os and software manufacturer must provide a CLI interface to their products because of the new equal access laws regarding handicapped individuals.
The problem with Jim is not that he doesn't know anything, but rather that he knows so many things that aren't true. (But I would not favor enforcing the state granted monopoly on the practice of law if Jim wants to hang out his shingle. If he can get someone to pay him for legal advice, more power to him, but /caveat emptor/.)
That is a two edged sword. Where did you get your law degree? My lawyers both got theirs at UT Austin Law School. Both are federal lawyers and both have argued before the Supreme and are currently allowed to argue before the Supremes. The bottem line is that this whole issue is so full of circular arguments and contrary views it may take quite a few years to work out something that makes any kind of sense at all, if ever. Course by then we will have a whole new generatio of technology to argue over. Take care all, and watch your sixes. Jim Choate