To take this one step further, has anyone tried to ever use this method as an encryption method? You could hide data in a stream of random bits, using position as the encryption method. Obviously, the data would not be stored in packets; rather as single bits strewn throughout the stream. Even ASCII characters could be hidden in such a system very well, as the possibility of choosing the correct 8 bits (extended char set) from the data stream when any combination has equal potential of being the correct sequence would be extremely difficult. Error checking/correcting code could even be used. Using this system, the placement algorithm would be the focus of attack. If an algorithm which has a sufficiently random placement was used, extracting the correct bits would be difficult. Another way to increase the security would be to hide the correct message inside a bitstream created by using the same method on other similar messages. (Hiding a real message inside bogus messages. Hmm... Which one's real?) Patrick _______________________________________________________________________________ From: Mullen Patrick on Thu, Sep 19, 1996 9:19 Subject: Stego inside encryption To: Cypherpunks I know a lot of times the idea behind steganography is to hide the fact that a secret message is in a seemingly normal file/mail/whatever. This is good for avoiding unwanted interest in your file. The benefit of not having people attempt to crack you code, added to the strength of the cryptosystem is wonderful. However, I propose this-- Don't hide that anything's encrypted! Rather than hide this fact, throw it in their face! I propose hiding an encrypted message inside another encrypted message. Set bits in specific places to data in the real message. The benefit is Oscar not only doesn't know what the crypto is, he attacks the wrong message. Hiding statistically random bits from the true message in statistically random bits from the masking message shouldn't be too hard. Granted, this scheme doesn't get you past measures designed to keep out all encrypted messages, and it surely wouldn't keep you message from generating interest, but it would be very hard to decrypt the message, especially when some algorithm is used which (seemingly) randomly selects which bits to use for the stego. Just a thought... My apologies if someone has already proposed this method. Patrick