AFTER THIS POST, ALL RELIGION MUST GO OFF THE LIST! see banner below First, in re: Dimitri's scurrilous attack: to paraphrase Winston Churchill... Dimitri: "attila, you are drunk!" Attila: "ah, Dimitri, you are ignorant, but I shall be sober in the morning!" I have met some pretty ignorant and some pretty violent men in my life; despite your alledged education, you are a social abomination, an uncivilized boar, rooting in the gardens of civilization, snorting your pleasure while distorting facts and reason. You obviously fattened too long at the table of eminent Russian diplomats like Kruschev, or even the brooding Brezenev. If you must practice barbarism, go ahead --but go home. Life is short enough without a constant stream of filth and errors from an obviously small, illiterate, and undisciplined mind. Now, concerning the completely ignorant, erroneus, and slanderous comment of Dimitri, the facts will follow the usual disclaimer: *************************************************************** I am neither an authority of nor a representative of "The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints" of which our current living Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, is the sole authority to this world. I do not speak for the Church, nor am I a recognized historian and/or spokesman for the Church. Any opinions stated herein are my viewpoints as discerned from my studies of religion, in particular the historical aspect of the Church, and I accept all responsibilty for same. ******************************************************************* If some of the list wish to either ask questions RESPONSIBLY or conduct a shared learning experience of the Mormon religious, community, and work ethic, please drop me a personal note, and I will both answer reasonable questions, and serve as moderator of a list if there is sufficient interest. I think the libertarian faction in particular might be both surprised and *stunned* by many of the actual conditions in Utah versus preconceived views. ******************************************************************* now, back to our regularly scheduled programming <g> the following is a compilation of information which is as reasonable a representation of the foul deed as I could assemble. <html><head><title> Mountain Meadows Summary </title></head></html> <body bgcolor="#0070c0" text=ffffff link=ff0000 vlink=00ffff alink=ff0000> Regardless of whatever the facts, fears, and motives; under pressure from the Paiute Indians, who had already surrounded the wagons, Mountain Meadows remains as the sole instance of an essentially unprovoked attack which possibly may have been assisted by a few Mormons; Mormons who rarely even raised arms to defend themselves, and who trusted in the Lord to protect and preserve them. <p> the wagon train in question at Mountain Meadows, which is about 10-15 miles south of Enterprise and 40 miles northwest of St. George on the Spanish Trail was beseiged by the Paiute Indians who had tolerated the wagon trains for many years. However, this train was insufficiently provisioned and they plundered both the Indians and the few settlers in the region for provisions. With at least 50 armed and mounted men, they were a significant force in the region at that time. The Paiutes called on the local Mormons to help destroy them, or face attack from the Indians themselves. Perceiving the wagon train as part of the general threat to their community, John D. Lee alledgedly lured them from their wagon train and the Paiute murdered all but a few of the children.<p> However, given the continued persecution of the Saints for almost thirty years, persecution which even followed them to vast empty lands of the Utah Desert, the belief the wagon train was a group of prior persecutors from Missouri, and the imminent presence of a full United States Army to occupy Utah, there was substantial and justifiable fear among Lee and his fellow settlers.<p> The true facts of John D. Lee's actual involvement in the Massacre will never be known. There is no positive indication that anyone other than Lee was involved; the community he founded immediately shunned him, even to the point of threats and ostracizing his children. Given John D. Lee's fervor, he may have made the decision himself, therefore assuming the responsibility in the eye of a very biased federal territorial judge sent from Washington to enforce new federal laws which encompassed confiscation of Mormon property and dissolving the church. Despite Lee's denials, and no material witnesses of fact. John D. Lee was tried a second time and executed more than ten years after the incident. <p> It is recorded that Jon D. Lee walked to his execution at Mountain Meadows after his bitter final declaration, saying to his executioners: <p> "...aim for the heart, boys. Don't sully the flesh."<p> Unfortunately, the Mountain Meadows is always one of the first items printed; in this case, even of questionable historical accuracy, after the usual overstated references to polygamy without regard for the economic and social necessity of the extended families in a society with so many more widowed and unmarried women then there were men, to assemble complete family units. <p> Polygamy, for instance, existed in the Old Testament times, basically for the same reasons, and with basically similar rules. <p> John D. Lee Biography <br> John D. Lee - Last Words <br> </body></html> NOW, LET'S KEEP THIS OFF THE LIST. join the newsgroup alt.religion.mormon if you wish to argue; it has been "sniper's alley" ever since its founding. **************************************************************************** .> Ryan Russell/SYBASE writes: .> .> > I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons > > originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, > > and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that > > to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant > > with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from > > folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though > > you're not presently effected? .On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: .> .> It's worth noting that one of Utah mormons favorite pastimes was to ambush .> the settlers heading for California, kill them all, and take their property .> However the mormons were dealt with much less severely than the .> local Indians who tried the same tricks. Pity. .> on 10/02/96 at 10:28 PM, "Paul S. Penrod" <furballs@netcom.com> said: .Ah yes, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I was wondering when you might trot .that little bit of revisionist history out for display. BTW, its your .revison of history, not the way it was recorded by many other sources, .including first hand accounts by people who had witnessed the whole affair .and recorded it in their journals, some of which made it to the National .Archives and was researched almost 8 years ago in order to raise a monument .to those mem and women who were felled there courtesy of a miscommunication, .a late communication and the US Calvary. .You might want to read a *real* historical account of what actually happened .before sounding off and leading the rest of us to believe you are a graduate .of the Leon Panneta Fact Reporting School of Spin Doctoring. ....Paul -- "I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." --Will Rogers