Fact is, I now have more people in my Eudora filter file that at any time in the four years this list has existed. Also a fact, there are more people on this list that at any time in history (despite what some of the New Wave journalists are writing about "the death of the Cypherpunks list"). Fact is, the attention being given to Vulis, Aga, Stathis, Boursy, and other list disruptors (or clueless cross-posters) is _exactly_ what they thrive on: controversy. Being the center of so much attention strokes their egos. I suspect John Gilmore made a tactical error in kicking Vulis off the list, as there are so _many_ workarounds. Vulis is clearly posting more messages, of even greater vitriol, than ever before. Dozens of messages just so far today. And his supporters and detractors are chiming in with equally juvenile taunts. This "aga" personna, for example, seems dead-set on doing whatever he can to get himself added to the "Unwelcome on Cypherpunks" list. A predictable effect, I'm afraid. Not that I question John's right to do as he pleases with his machines. This list is, after all, operated at his expense on his hardware. [A minor note, though. I disagree with the abstract notion that John "created" the list, and now "owns" the list. Eric Hughes, Hugh Daniel, and I proposed a mailing list after the first Cypherpunks meeting, and Hugh set it up. John volunteered his machine, toad, as he has volunteered it for so many other projects in the past. While John is in an important sense free to discontinue his hosting of the list, it is also true that traditional notions of "ownership" are not the full story. For example, if the San Francisco Marriot Hotel plays host to the CFP Conference, in any sense is it proper to say they "own" the conference? If a church volunteers space for a club meeting, do they "own" the club? However, in both cases the host may kick out an especially uncouth or disruptive attendee, modulo specific contract language agreed to by the parties, and this is, I think, all John has claimed to be doing with Vulis. Perhaps a mistake, but certainly within reason. I think John has taken a hands-off attitude toward the list, and has never imposed restrictions on topic, membership, etc. This one case involving Vulis was well-described by John: he asked Vulis to stop sending 50K byte rants about the Armenians and Turks to the list--consider that 50KB x 1500 destinations = 75 MB of outgoing traffic, modulo corrections for aliases, compression, etc. Vulis responded with more insults, basically saying "Make me!!!!" Gilmore said, "OK."] And the issue is not just killfiles and filters. It's a matter of not giving the juvenile disruptors the results they crave. Yes, this message is itself likely to trigger at least a couple of "More lies from Timmy [fart] May" spews from Vulis, and a couple of incoherent rants from newcomers Stathis and Aga. I've been saying little on this issue, compared to dozens of Vulis rants every day (ironic that he calls _me_ the main ranter!), but it's time to remind folks of a basic Net maxim: DON'T FEED THE ANIMALS. --Tim May "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."