Explanation: I am reposting this because my original post seems to have been inadvertantly(?) mutilated after the fact. On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote:
Timothy C. May wrote:
Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is another matter.
Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views.
Likewise, we wouldn't want your ramblings to go unchallenged, as you might be presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/pro-crypto views.
Besides anything else Bell was like the party bore with a hobby horse he just has to talk about. I'm somewhat more sensitive than most to advocates of murdering government officials, some of my relatives are in government and have had well publicised assassination attempts against them.
Maybe they deserved them. Making politics more risky may have the benificial effect of thinning out the ranks of politicians to truely dedicated ones, instead of the fat parasitic beurocrats we have now.
I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to murder.
Given certain political views contrary to your own, the government not only incites but commits murder daily, on a much greater scale. Is it so wrong try to put an end to this by a little strategic assassination?
paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote:
Not at all, Jim advocates the use of necessary force against an initiator of violence, as you would see if you have read Jims AP overview essay he does not advocate the use of AP to kill innocent people, indeed he does not intend it to kill anyone at all, Rather to act as a deterrent to government which would violate the NAP.
Who decides what "innocent" was?
Certainly not the government.
In Jim's world it was very clear that he decided who was innocent, he decided what his rights were, he decided who he could murder.
He limited the justifiable targets of AP to be those he thought should be targets. His argument with the IRS appears to have included the claim that they infringed his rights which under Bell's manifesto gives him the right to murder them.
You're completely off the mark. Have you read his essay at - http://www.prairienet.org/bureau42/public/apfull.txt He cited government officials involved in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the IRS as examples. But, he clearly stated that: "It would be impossible, for example, to set up some sort of "Assassination Politics Dictator," who decides who will live and who will die, because competition in the system will always rise to supply every demand, albeit at possibly a very high price. And if you believe the maxim that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," you wouldn't want to accept any form of centralized control (even, perhaps, that of your own!), because any such control would eventually be corrupted. Most rational people recognize this, and I do too. I would not have invented a system where "Jim Bell" gets to make "all the decisions." Quite the contrary, the system I've described absolutely prevents such centralization. That, quite frankly, is the novelty and dare I say it, the beauty of this idea. I believe that it simply cannot be hijacked by centralized political control. As I pointed out in the essay, if _I_ were running one of the organizations accepting those donations and offering those prizes, I would selectively list only those targets who I am genuinely satisfied are guilty of the violation of the "non-agression principle." But as a practical matter, there is no way that I could stop a DIFFERENT organization from being set up and operating under DIFFERENT moral and ethical principles, especially if it operated anonymously, as I antipate the "Assassination Politics"-type systems will be. Thus, I'm forced to accept the reality that I can't dictate a "strongly limited" system that would "guarantee" no "unjustified" deaths: I can merely control my little piece of the earth and not assist in the abuse of others."
Also, an inevitable consequence of anonymity and untraceable ecash is that assasination pools will become a feature of the political landscape.
No, it is not. If it were then Digital cash would never be possible. Society simply would not allow it and they would be right not to do so.
It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be enforced. The betting pool is simply one of a long line of failed attempts to prop up the scheme.
If this is so impossible, then why do you later claim that: "I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people."? You do have a point, though. The actual payment would be hard to enforce. This is just a technical difficulty that can be overcome with dedicated effort. The idea is sound in all other ways.
No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, nor any other such cover. If an IRS agent was murdered as a result of a contract placed in an Anguilla betting pool the marines would be landing the next week. No country that is small enough not to be threatened by AP has the necessary millitary strength to resist invasion. The benmefits of hosting the AP pool are marginal if any therefore no country would ever host it.
Ever heard of "virtual corporations"? They may exist without heed to national borders. The technical means also exist for complete anonymity on the internet, so that even the location of servers may be concealed (via. Onion Routers, and their ilk). Besides, all interaction with the corporation could be conducted through email, for which a rather high degree of anonymity exists already.
Of course there is nothing to stop someone betting that an innocent person should be killed, this is a great problem in the scheme, but if this did occur the friends and family of the victim would normally have a pretty good idea who placed the bet and could place a bet on their imminent death...
There is everythingt to stop bets being placed period.
This is debatable, as much as you fasion yourself the arbiter of what is possible.
Of course the main use of AP would be to murder familly members, business rivals etc. AP is simply an unrestrained murder machine with absolutely no safeguards.
Assassination transactions against anyone can be carried out anonymously right as we speak. There are absolutely no safeguards against that. However, AP is different. AP calls for a large pool of money donated in generally small ammounts by large numbers of individuals. The incentive for killing officials who garner retribution from whole populations would be much greater than that of some random individual.
Besides which you seem not to have read and understood AP as you have ignored Jims comments about the problems of innocent people being killed.
This "not understood" conciet is bogus. I have read and fully understood Bell's article. It is in my view an incitement to murder.
I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of communication. If Bell can't communicate his idea to me then that is his fault, his responsibility. I am arguing against the plan he describes. Do not try the patronising "you are not clever enough to understand this" line. In this case it is bluster.
H.L.Machen perceptively noted, "It is a common fallacy of our time that a moron run through a university and decorated with a PHD will thereby cease to be a moron." So save your credentials for the tabloids.
Question: Would you say the assassination of a statist who had badly violated the NAP (eg. A district attorney involved in prosecutions for drug dealing) was a crime?
Absolutely for the simple reason that mob rule, lynch law is always criminal. If there is no due process there is no justice.
Ah, I see that you are in agreement with some of the framers of our great constitution in rejecting Direct Democracy, in favor of one or another flavor of elitism (Representative Democracy, lets say). Not that it's necessarily so bad, mind you, but at least you're showing your true colors.
Under AP rules the state has a perfect right to execute Bell. Bell clearly intends the murder of government personel, therefore under AP rules the government has the "right" to protect itself with AP if it choses. If it decides on a less arbitrary sanction then under AP principles that is a concession it is not required to make.
The state has no rights. It is not a living individual. Only humans, and arguably animals, have rights.
AP eliminates process and with it proof. There are no steps proposed by which an AP initiator should deterine whether his rights have indeed been infringed.
You're right. It is not the American Way of justice. However, that way is not itself above suspicion. The reliability of witnesses is suspect, even when they are sincere in trying to recall events. The judges are not above corruption, especially as they are in positions of power and power corrupts. Finally, the jury is not without its biases, even when its not also paid off, as can be seen from the controversial results of well publicised cases involving Rodney King and O.J.Simpson.
Therefore an instigator is not acting upon actual infringement of rights, merely suspected infringment.
This may or may not be true. Some donations to AP organisations may have no basis in fact whatsoever. The public is verry malleable, I'll grant you. However, others, such as large scale repression, will have very real basis in fact. Imagine the will of the Black people being harnessed through AP organizations during American Slavery.
The state employees suspect Bell plots infringement of his rights. Therefore under Bell's own theory they have the right to respond by infringing his rights, without trial.
Of course. However, the state employees are few. The subjects, or "beneficiaries" of the state are many.
AP does not contain a coherent normative ethical theory.
Of course it does, I don't think you've read closely enough. Perhaps you should stick to Nuclear Physics and Electrical Engineering. Scientists are notorious for not "getting" ethics, or completely ignoring them in wanting to stick to "pure" science.
WRONG... The LEAs were the initiators of force and violators of the NAP, Jim Bell, were he to kill a member of the IRS, would not be commiting any crime, rather defending himself from a violation of his rights.
He would empirically be guilty of a crime. The courts would consider it murder and sentence him accordingly.
Obviously, Paul is speaking of crime from Jim Bell's "ethical theory" perspective. Phil discounts the existence of that perspective, and answers from a "real world" perspective, completely missing Paul's point.
You may not consider him ethically to be guitly of something wrong. I would disagree in that case. The LEAs have the right to initiate force in accordance with the directions of a court order. They are pre-emtively protecting their personal right to defend themselves and on behalf of society pre-emptively protecting it.
The state is self-perpetuating. Threats to the well being of members of it are taken seriously, that's no surprise. It would be surprising for the subjects of this state to wake up and pre-emtively protect themselves from the state.
If I may make an analogy you are saying that were I to be attacked in the street, and I pulled a gun on the attacker he has a "moral" right to kill me to protect himself?
He could well have that legal right in certain circumstances.
You didn't answer his question.
However, I also think that there is a possibility that his statements, either on cypherpunks or elsewhere, may have gone over the line in terms of threatening behavior. It may be a moral weakness on my part, but I am not too inclined to defend someone who advocates shooting me.
Then you are of weak character and a closet statist.
Good, now we have discovered that names like statist, liberal etc are not insults even if bellowed by idiots at the top of their lungs we can return to sanity.
Ah, sanity. The Crusades seemed sane to the Christians. The Holocaust to the Nazis. Communism to the Russians. And now, a police state to the Americans.
I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in court if asked.
You're such a good patriot.
I don't believe that people are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do.
More elitism! Well, we're all lucky we have you, the agents at Waco and Ruby Ridge, and the IRS to protect us. Perhaps you'll do us all a favor and judge yourself superfluous and even harmful to "the people's cause" and put a contract on yourselves in an AP organization, when they come to be. I thought not. All we'll see are attempts are self perpetuation.
Otherwise you have no more to worry about than you do now, AP simply allows people perfect (as near as possible) anonymity, You can have someone assasinated now without betting pools....
I have plenty to worry about, Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people.
Again, what do you have to worry about if, as you say, "Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous"? -=- A concerned citizen