Hi everyone, I've been watching this list for a few weeks now, and I really don't see any real basis for defending Clipper. It seems the essential arugment of Denning and others is, "Well, we can't tell you what we're afraid of, but trust us, we should be afraid". Can they not tell us because they don't know? Or is it some sort of "secret" they fear? Obviously, widespread secure communications would make life much easier for criminals. Yes, terrorists will be able to make their secret plans using cryptography. But, I would hasten to point out that the Trade Center bombers managed to pull their attack off with NO encrypted conversations that I've heard about. And yes, next time it might be a nuclear bomb. There, is that the unnamed terror? Or is it that the intelligence community is learning all the neat-o toys they bought for SIGINT are rapidly becoming worthless, and in reality there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. They'll have to strengthen their long neglected human intel-gathering side, much as some members of their own community have been arguing for years. The real reason Denning, the NSA, et al are arguing for Clipper is that they realize their professions are becoming obsolete. Welcome to the ranks of the techo-unemployed. Just as nuclear proliferation marches on slowly but surely, so will high-tech crypto. Information wants to be free, as they say, and the implication here is you just can't stop it. Does the government really think they can stop everyone in the world who wishes this nation harm from using crypto? I think not....So they better get on the ball really defending us... Sorry for rambling on.... Rod Ramsey Area51@aol.com