I think this conversation is getting silly even by net.standards. On the one hand we have the screaming libertarians with a bunch of wedged political notions about property. On the other we have what appear to be arch anti-capitalists claiming that nobody who earns a living out of crypto can be a cypherpunk. What is really strange is that these appear to be the _same_ people. Now I'm not one for supporting corporativism but consider this, most if not all of the technical contributors to this list who can earn money from their crypto knowledge do so. Matt and Jeff are not alone in being paid for their abilities. Another thing is that many of us are also into government contract work up to their necks. The Web consortium is funded partly through an ARPA grant. MIT is practically floating on government subsidies. Yes this is where your tax dollars go, learn to love it or die bitching. The point is that the tourist element who gripe on about nothing other than their political views and never contribute any technical input are not the people that make the list work. People like Matt and Jeff are the people who make the list worthwhile. Phill