Can we maybe discuss other things then how Mcom fucked up? They've said specifically that they plan to support IPSP as soon as it is viable to do so. They've said they plan to support whatever MIME encryption thingamajigs exist, as soon as they are standardized. [And don't get mad at them for waiting for it to become standardized when their own protocol isn't. I have talked with someone developing commercial software who spent some serious time writing stuff to handle MIME encryption, only to have the specs change on him significantly.] Now, maybe they are lying about this. But you aren't going to get anything else out of them on this list. They've come as close as they are going to to admitting they made a mistake with SSL. I believe a good paraphrase of what wa said (I didnt' keep a copy of the message) was that "however it looks now, SSL made sense at the time, and it's a done thing now." Maybe they are only saying this much to appease the list, but again, that's all you are going to get out of them. It seems like it would be an impossibility economically and public-relations-ly for them to just abandom SSL, and they probably dont' want to either. But they've said that they plan on supporting IPSP, MIME encryption stuff, and anything else out there that will do the job. I'm not sure what else you want to drag out of them. Can we maybe stop this flame fest and let the list return to it's normal traffic levels?