This thread is probably already due for a change in the Subject line, but I'll leave it untouched for the moment. On 30 Nov 96 at 13:10, Black Unicorn wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Greg Broiles wrote:
[...]
I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be true for a computer. Fed.Rul.Crim.Pro. 41(b)(1) allows the seizure (but seizure is not forfeiture) of "property that constitutes evidence of the commission of a criminal offense".
It is true of computers. Take the case of Ripco (the Chicago BBS raided in the SunDevil raids back when).
I don't think "Dr. Ripco" has yet gotten his equipment back. I don't know for sure, but what I do know is that 5 years after the raid, he still had certainly not gotten anything back. [....] Recall also that Ripco was never specifically charged (or the minor charges that they did try to pin didn't stick).
Also recall that Ripco (now ripco.com) was raided with a -sealed- warrant. I dont think that the contents of that warrant have, even today, been released (though I could be mistaken). Certainly 5 years after they had not.
[....]
But there's a big difference between "seizure" and "forfeiture".
I'd argue with computer hardware it is a distinction without a difference. Seizing computer hardware (like Ripco's stuff) for in excess of 5 years is tantamount to forfeiture given depreciation and so forth.
Add to this the very liberal rules about how long the feds can take to even CHARGE you with a crime after seizure....
And it sums to a very bleak picture, indeed. [....]
So yes, there may be a statute which gives title to the government in computers used to commit crimes, and no, the Supreme Court won't necessarily care about an "innocent owner".
Again, I would argue that such a statute needn't even exist given the rules already well estlablished and demonstrated in action with regard to indefinate seizure of computer hardware even in the absence of criminal claims against the owner.
Please forgive my naivete, but are there no legal weapons available to the 'victims' in such cases? I'm passingly familiar with the Operation Sundevil fiasco -- i.e., with the outcome re the principal 'charges'. I'm appalled, however, at the apparent lack of remedies for return of such seized property. Are individuals who find themselves in such a predicament simply at the government's mercy (there's an oxymoron for ya)?? Tired Fighter