On Thu, Dec 04, 1997 at 05:22:23PM -0700, Jim Burnes wrote: [...]
And Singapore survives quite well being a totalitarian capitalist society. Sure, you can pick nits and claim that Singapore's not entirely capitalist, but it's more capitalist than this country and certainly less free, too.
hmmm.. no one says that singapore doesn't work anyomore than that they say that a team of horses under a whip doesn't work. the difference is that in singapore the policeman is inside.
Nope. I have several friends who are from Singapore, and that is simply not the way they see it. They like their country, and they are proud of it. They know it isn't perfect, but they think it is pretty damn good. From their perspective your statement simply reflects the narrowness of your point of view. [...]
there is a fundamental flaw your case. economic freedom is really the same as social freedom.
This also represents a terribly narrow view of the world. Freedom is psychological state as much as it is a social or an economic one.
In either case, the act of buying and selling things is the ultimate expression of free association/assembly.
Nonsense. The ultimate expression of freedom is skinny dipping in a mountain lake.
I might mention, since this is the cypherpunk list, that crypto is *exactly* what big brother is afraid of because we might realize what *kind* of slaves we are and what kind of masters they are. Incidentally it might actually free us from this prison some day. The first step to escaping from your jail cell is understanding that you live in a jail cell and what kind of cell that is. Most new citizens units have a room reserved from birth. (slave: birth to grave)
Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom in any advanced society. It is the medium by which we interact with society at large. Red Hat software doesn't know who the hell I am and they probably can't afford to care that much. What they do know is that if they configure a really decent version of Linux that I will give them $50. It allows me to do my thing and it puts food on their table.
Economic freedom is what makes it possible for society to evolve into to something better. Lack of it eventually dooms the inhabitants to decide whether to become a hammer or an anvil -- a host or a parasite.
If you don't think that the population is prevented from making purchasing decisions then you better get the sleep out of your eyes and take a good, hard look.
</pedagogy>
Actually, it's dogma, not pedagogy. The notion of "freedom" to a libertarian is like the notion of "faith" to a Christian -- a self-reinforcing mental trap, a span of circular thinking that is just a little too large for them to notice and say "Haven't I been here before?" Like moths they flit around the bright emotional icons that blind them, define their world, and trap their thoughts in endless repetition. For all the brave words about reason and logic, and all the endless discussion about it, libertarians don't ever actually sit down and think "what does the word 'freedom' mean, anyway?". Instead, their thinking goes down to a point where they can repeat some mantra like "Freedom to make purchasing decisions is *the* major component of freedom in any advanced society", and they never realize the exact circularity involved. It might as well be "Freedom to worship the Lord is *the* major component of freedom in any advanced society." Or "Being a slave to purchasing decisions is *the* major component of slavery in any advanced society." Thinking in platitudes is not thinking. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html