I suppose I'm chagrinned that a thread I named, "Utah as a Religious Police State," has been followed by *so many* religious flames, pro- and con- Mormonism. (I use Mormonism as shorthand for LDS...sosumi.) My point was not to attack Mormonism, esp. the religious beliefs. Personally, I think cults are useful in keeping people off the streets (better than police-enforced curfews). I was mainly challenging Attila's glowing opinion of how his community "enforces curfews big time." Telling people when they can be on public streets and when they cannot is no different than telling them what they can read and what they cannot. ("Telling them" in the sense of backing it up with the power of the state. For example, the LDS church is perfectly free to "tell" its members not to read the books of, say, Juanita Brooks. However, this may not be enforced by the government or its police and court arms, so long as Utah is part of these United States. Period.) Personally, I find Mormonism to be a good "survival meme." Self-preparedness, food storage, self-reliance, etc., are all counter to the "I'll just let government take care of me" meme which is so common in the rest of society. I don't cotton to supernatural explanations of the world, though, so I've never been in involved in any religion (past age 11). This is the last thing I'll say on Mormonism. Whether some subset of settlers committed some set of crimes in Mountain Meadows is a footnote in history--who really cares about such anomalies? I care more about the present. I still urge Attila to rethink his enthusiastic support of state-enforced curfews, or state-imposed bans on alcohol (not that I recall him supporting this particular law), etc. --Tim "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."