From nathan@freitas.net Fri Jul 6 02:30:46 2018 From: nathan@freitas.net To: cypherpunks-legacy@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: [tor-talk] [liberationtech] Not another Haystack right? Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 02:30:46 +0000 Message-ID: <172289270698.3881296.11930201427826148967.generated@mail.pglaf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7877190338632183411==" --===============7877190338632183411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wrote the block of text attributed to Eugene below, and total agree with yo= u, Andrew. Much of the activist tech support I do is for Tibetans inside Occu= pied Tibet, and as we know Tor in China right now is quite a difficult propos= ition. Traditional VPNs can and do work, especially when the user simply need= s circumvention, and has enough of a risk safety net that they won't be quest= ioned or detained for simply using a vpn. As the primary developer of Orbot as well, I also deal with mobile latency is= sues quite a bit as well, and this has led me to think quite a bit about how = the real time browse and click model of the web is highly incompatible with t= he realities of Tor. I think the solution for users who want both strong anonymity and circumventi= on via Tor, and are operating in a high latency environment, is to use applic= ations like offline web cacheing tools (from pay per minute, dial up era), RS= S readers, Twitter clients, Podcast apps and even Mail clients, which support= synchronization and offline content access. These types of apps minimize the= latency a user has to experience, while maximizing the amount of content tha= t can then be shared via sneakernet or LANs. In summary, I think we should try to expand the way people use Tor, as oppose= d to pushing them towards less safe solutions. +n8fr8=20 --=20 Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. Andrew wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/2/2011 4:19 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > This also works against Tor in many cases, where people might > understand it is the best option, but will use a less safe VPN or > single-hop proxy, because they want something 'faster' or need to > stream a YouTube video in Flash. In that case, they are following > the wrong instincts, but it is the same mechanic at play We have to be more pragmatic tor is horrendously slow/unusable in some of these countries, and as long as you take some steps like not using single hop for either Proxies or VPNs, then you are addressing the treat model that they face, not one that we are making up in our heads. I realize that it is not perfect, and there is a trade off, but people on the ground are looking at it and making that choice for themselves. I've spent a lot of time working on issues with Syria lately, the universal report is that tor is terrible slow, they can't use tails because it takes too long to download/ is blocked, and their data might leak if if they use Tor, so using a VPN with some precautions taken is much more appetizing. - -Andrew -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJO2VWEAAoJEJW/J8aB8dYICFwIALhvq3K49XfOnd1PJ1jVlWJv YOvWDBZCDkdo8ygMFZpAfRmAELUT4aPw9B3UKJOhBI87Hcjm6RA1BpDw09YdQdbl 4mK1U+X0DZL0dIjQZioqo95w3ey6Jzj6ddF0rctmwC3zAkLUdVg9wTvCUurH+UII TKrTLBaSVacGIqPxrgYOpLpSEUt4HzYQbOJla0VsaUw+voG/03GWaKo5CJrKKhTa Gx+lFlSxrYl+tyHa47vuuJrHdvR9j4sr/AQ2aJyYdXdumUWVMyBIOsssMbqG0xu3 6Y2cbRSTHZJlyFdZasgRsUE3gNiDup9LZ0AuW2hcVDzdaLCWmhkLxoB6kaJmn/A=3D =3DJnWc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _____________________________________________ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk(a)lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk _______________________________________________ tor-talk mailing list tor-talk(a)lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk ----- End forwarded message ----- --=20 Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE --===============7877190338632183411==--